Season 1 QnA

[Intro theme]

ALEXANDER NEWALL (“ALEX”)

Hello everybodyyy, guess who it is! It is us.

JONATHAN SIMS (“JONNY”)

It’s me and Alex.

ALEX

It’s ya spooky boys. We’re here, hello. If you are listening to this, then presumably you have listened to the first season of Magnus Protocol. If not, you’re starting to continue the wonderful trend that is jumping on a just utterly random and pointless… point, so kudos to you, I wouldn’t recommend it but to each their own.

JONNY

I have actually done that before, with a podcast –

ALEX

You jumped on a QnA for someone?

JONNY

Accidentally! I got about ten minutes in and I was like, “Wait, hang on, this can’t be right.” Turns out I was correct!

ALEX

Well, that is unacceptable. Nonetheless, we shall treat this as if it is your first, so with that in mind, why don’t you introduce yourself and then we’ll go from there.

JONNY

Hi, I’m Jonathan Sims, Jonny. I am one of the writers and one of the voice actors for The Magnus Protocol.

ALEX

And I am Alexander J Newall, founder and CEO of Rusty Quill – the people who make the show – and I do some writing with Jonny, direct, and do some voice and do some produce, because I am a glutton for punishment.

And today what we’re doing is another time-honored tradition, which is QnAs! By which I mean, our team has gone through thousands of questions and a lot of them are summarized to, basically, “everyone asks.”

And we’re going to be answering questions about primarily Protocol, I assume?

JONNY

I mean, one assumes.

ALEX

I don’t know, maybe people are really into asking about your skincare routine or something, Jonny. We got a lot of that in Archives.

JONNY

Aw, don’t ask about my skincare routine, it’s… I’ve not been keeping up with it.

ALEX

Awwww. That’s a shame. What are you gonna do with your skin now, we can’t harvest it and use it for things like bookbinding.

JONNY

It’s a bit of a shame, because I’m often being told that I have very good skin, I – that actually doesn’t take much for me to, like, a very basic skincare routine has dramatic results. So, it really is a waste that I’m not doing anything with it at the moment.

ALEX

The reverse of that is when anyone sees videos of me and goes “Oh no, what happened?” And you’re like, “Age, we’re all rotting, entropy is coming for you.” (quieter) That’s a fun one for me.

JONNY

(very tired) You look fine.

ALEX

Exactly! Before I looked amaaaazing! – Right. Okay. We’re gonna go through some questions. So, I have the list here, which I’m coming at cold, but I can at least see who asked what.

JONNY

Now, a lot of these are from, quote-unquote, “loads of people.” Should we take turns in, like, being “loads of people”?

ALEX

I – (sighs) Sure. Alright. I’ll go first then.

This is from “loads of people”: (putting on a voice) “While writing this story of the first season, did you originally plan to have as many of the TMA characters” – that’s The Magnus Archives characters – “that appeared in the season from the start, or were they put in as the story progressed?”

JONNY

The number was pretty much consistent from the start. Which ones is the bit that was pretty hotly contested, and we went back and forth on a lot.

ALEX

(laughs) I really like the idea, though, that we’re just like, “Episode three, eh, chuck one in there. Episode seven, eh, chuck one in there, why not.” There was a plan!

JONNY

We’re just here, Episode 18, and we’re like, “But what’s going on with Helen? We just don’t know!”

[Alex chuckles]

ALEX

We did have a plan, just to be clear, but there were substitutions, where, like, people weren’t available or timings didn’t work out and things like that, so I’m happy to say I’m really, really, really happy with what balance we’ve struck.

JONNY

Yeah.

ALEX

Genuinely I’m like, yeah, this works really nicely. It’s not like we were in dire straits or anything, but at the same time, we were careful to make sure that the structure was built in such a way that, I don’t know, let’s say that Imogen just categorically couldn’t be here as Helen. Okay, we have other options for who we could have subbed in there if we had to, and stuff like that.

JONNY

We were very cognizant from the start that this was not going to be “Let’s check up on every single Magnus Archives character,” because there were a lot, and trying to get the balance of the show so that it feels in conversation with the original without being too fan-service-y was a constant discussion. You may think we erred one side or the other but at the end of the day, like, the Archives characters that we definitely wanted to revisit in a significant way have remained pretty much the same since original conception.

But, there is a sort of a Tier 2 where we were like, well, at some point – because of the role Celia gets to play – we can check in on our alternate reality versions of some of the Magnus Archives characters. And which ones those were? That was what we had a lot of discussions about. We knew that we would probably be checking in on like, I don’t know, three or four of the Archives characters? But which ones… a lot of that came down to who was available.

ALEX

I fought for more than Jonny, I think. If left to my own devices, I’d turn everything into a Dickensian mess of “everyone’s accidentally each other’s grandmothers!” and stuff. Jonny would have a lot more restraint than me.

JONNY

I had to be like, “No. That’s too many. Cut them. No one will ever know what happens to this character in the alternate universe.” And that’s… good, probably.

ALEX

I’m gonna pass across to the next question. This is a good example of what’s probably going to come up a lot. This is from Riley and Dear Teleport¹: “Where did Jack, Celia’s baby, come from? Essentially, did Celia get pregnant and give birth to a baby after finding herself in a strange new dimension, or did Celia take over Jack’s actual mum since she’s got severe Stranger Danger going on from the last episode? I understand if this can’t be answered but I’d like you to know I’ve got the red string out – so many theories!”

I feel like this is gonna be one of a few that’s a “none of ya business”?

JONNY

No actually, you know what, this one… There’s a lot that I’m like, “Ah, no, spoilers,” but this one, honestly, I’m quite comfortable answering. Because it’s not a plot point –

ALEX

(simultaneous) It’s not a plot point, it’s just, “Be patient!” is my stance. Like, you’ll find out!

JONNY

I’m happy to say, yeah, Jack is Celia’s kid. When Celia says she had some wild years over the last few years and ended up with a baby that she loves… she’s not lying. I’m quite happy to say that – like, it doesn’t feel like a reveal to me.

ALEX

I mean, it’s not. It’s just a confirmation, I guess.

JONNY

To me, a lot of the theorizing and the red string-ing about Jack is indicative to me of a slight, “Oh, no, we weren’t quite clear enough.” The baby is not a mystery.

ALEX

I think the timing fell a bit oddly where we ended up with some Celia scenes tying in too closely to, like, demon baby script?

JONNY

Ohhhh, yeah.

ALEX

So as a result, that steered people down a route. Where, don’t get me wrong, I get it. But as a general rule? If Jonny and I were gonna be doing horror stuff that centres around a baby/toddler as a plot point? Like, that’s really hard to do well and not kind of cheap.

JONNY

It’s a tricky one!

ALEX

I’m gonna be honest, I would’ve steered clear of that even if that was on the cards, cos it’s just… it’s messy. It’s messy.

JONNY

But it’s one of those things where… Jack, to me, is all about emotional stakes for a bunch of different characters. So I’m quite happy to sort of demystify him a bit so he can, you know, serve the plot function that I want him to.

ALEX

And I just wanted to have one character who wasn’t footloose and fancy-free, because they’re always footloose and fancy-free. Everyone always sneaks investigations in around their job and I’m like, “How? How do you balance your responsibilities?! Ah. You don’t.”

JONNY

After you’ve been writing for a while, you realize why so many protagonists are like, orphans, or don’t really have any friends, or are cut off from society. Because every time you’re like, “Okay, no, this protagonist isn’t gonna be an orphan, they’re gonna exist in the world.” And so much of your story is like, (anxiously) “What do their parents think about this?” Cos people have noticed?

ALEX

It’s inconvenient, but that’s kind of why I like it.

JONNY

Another question from “loads of people”: “Why alchemy and not a continuation of the Fears? Was there anything specific that sparked your interest in alchemy this season?”

ALEX

I love how aggressive your loads of people are compared to mine!

I think you should start with this one, because this one actually technically bore out from your criteria for what Protocol had to be.

JONNY

The big thing is, like, “why not a continuation of the Fears” – cos you all know about the Fears.

“Oh, let’s do a horror mystery podcast, but we’ve had 200 episodes explaining what the core mystery is already.”

ALEX

It kind of stops being a mystery podcast and starts being a glorified Pokédex, doesn’t it.

JONNY

We didn’t want to just be writing a Magnus Archives again. The Fears are great, but we’ve done ‘em. So we wanted to do something a little bit different, we wanted to explore different ways that the metaphysics of the Magnus universe could work.

What I did was I sat down and said, “Hey, Alex, you get to decide on the metaphysics for this particular reality. Because I’ve already done my metaphysics of fear. I could try and do another one, but I’m much more interested in what you’re gonna come up with.”

So Alex went away…

ALEX

(smugly) And came back with a system that can be accurate to three decimal places!

JONNY

And then I got a text message from Alex saying, “Hey, I’m looking into alchemy. Does that sound like an interesting avenue?”

And I was like – I mean, I love a bit of alchemy. About ten years back I got really into looking into it, and I didn’t remember everything, but I was like, “Oh, yeah, alchemy, that’s fun. A lot of cool symbols, a lot of mystery, a lot of historical stuff going on there.” And I was like, yeah, alchemy sounds good.

And then our next meeting Alex turned up with a full notebook.

ALEX

Well, yeah, you gotta do your research!

JONNY

Sixty, seventy pages, very close-written notes on this intricate alchemical system.

[Alex howls faintly with laughter]

JONNY

I think, like, maybe 5 to 10 percent of it has actually made it into the podcast?

ALEX

So far. I keep pushing! I keep pushing.

JONNY

All this stuff is, no one’s gonna – okay, we can just pretend. These seventy pages are how it works as well, but actually it’s these first five pages that we’re going to be dealing with, mainly.

ALEX

Jonny just takes umbrage cos as part of it, I insisted that he watch a video on fifth-dimensional vectors, and then he was like, “This feels a bit much.” And I was like (screeching in rage)

JONNY

(shamefully) I don’t think I watched it in the end.

ALEX

Totally hamstringing me, dude. And no, you didn’t! Because I referenced it and you were like, “Whuh? I don’t – whuh?”

In Jonny’s defense, I set myself two goals when given that, which was one, it needed to be compatible in the – like Jonny says, it has to be in conversation with the previous, it can’t just be like, “Now it’s all aliens! All the way down!”

JONNY

The metaphysics are different, but also the same?

ALEX

Yeah. They connect. They have to function around one another. And the other one was that, Jonny explained very articulately in a way I’m going to bastardize now, which was: By definition, because you did all of the metaphysics for Archives, anything you make is going to feel very Archives-y unless you have a different foundational scaffold to work from.

JONNY

Mm.

ALEX

To mix my building metaphors a bit. So I was rather explicitly not going into it the same angle that you did. So I actively was turning down options in my head, going “No, that’ll be too similar, that’ll be too similar.”

And I, from day dot, wanted one that was – I always think of like, if Archives is what happens if history got weird, this one’s a little bit more like what happened if other fields of study went weird. And I don’t know whether it’s worked yet, but that was sort of the guiding principle when generating my unnecessarily huge and pointless research.

JONNY

I mean, it was very good! We’ve ended up using quite a lot of it. It was just a lot all at once.

ALEX

Don’t pity me!

I mean, I did a fairly significant amount on Chinese alchemy that was pages and pages of stuff with the final paragraph being, “I don’t think any of this is relevant, but I made you read it, though. That’s the important thing.”

JONNY

Next question.

ALEX

Alright. This one’s from Coleby Elizabeth Column and Jen Devin. “Who is your favorite External? Are there any fun ones planned for future seasons we haven’t met yet?”

I’ll tell you who my least favorite External is.

JONNY

(singsong) It’s probably my favorite!

ALEX

I’m gonna swear, and I don’t do that on podcast – fucking Needles!

JONNY

(smiling) Yeah.

ALEX

Needles is the worst idea –

JONNY

(beatific) I know.

ALEX

– I have ever encountered! And the only time that you have vetoed my veto!

JONNY

Mm-hmm.

ALEX

You’re wrong!

JONNY

To be fair, Alex…

ALEX

The end result is fine, but conceptually Needles is dire!

JONNY

I didn’t so much veto your veto, as like, you vetoed Needles. And I was like, okay, but Needles is kind of what I got. What do you got for this role, for this episode, because it needs to serve a very specific function?

Aaand you didn’t come up with anything in time! So I was like, eh, I’m vetoing this!

ALEX

That’s not how I remember it at all.

JONNY

And you were like, “Can you make this scary?” And I was like, “I’m taking this as a challenge,” and then… I won.

ALEX

That’s not how I remember it at all.

JONNY

(smugly) I got gud.

ALEX

No. You got lucky, because you had a very, very skilled performer, managed to polish a very specific material – “It’s a bit sharp” is not a pitch for a monster!

[Jonny cackles]

JONNY

Y-may the eedles-nay!

ALEX

It wasn’t even like, oh, maybe he’s interested in blah blah blah – he’s like, “All I feel is like needles.”

This is like, late-stage, you know, three in the morning drunken Steven King! Like, oh, like, Needles, I guess.

JONNY

It’s never not funny to me how immediately and viscerally you hated him, because it was such a square-brackets idea.

[Alex wheezes with laughter]

JONNY

To my eyes it was so obvious, like, you know, probably not actually this, but it’s just an idea to sit in this position until we come up with something better. And it was because you were so angry!

ALEX

I hate it.

JONNY

At the placeholder idea – that I’m like, “…It’s no longer a placeholder!”

ALEX

I need you to know two things. One, whilst I admit that it has worked and I will confess that I still hate it –

JONNY

Yeah, oh yeah, that’s fair.

ALEX

– and two, Needles is just what happens when you’ve committed to the bit and are willing to put my professional life and your professional life on the line, for the bit. That’s what Needles is.

JONNY

Alex, we are both always ready to put our professional lives on the line for the bit.

[They both cackle]

It’s maybe our Achilles’ heel as creators.

ALEX

Little bit. We should probably actually answer the question as asked, rather than me using this as another chance to tear you down.

JONNY

Well no, I honestly think Needles is kind of my favorite External, largely because – because of this!

ALEX

Christ.

I will do what I do, which is never answer it straightforwardly, which is: my actual favorite, despite everything, is Bonzo. Cos it’s just fucking weird, and it’s come out nicely.

I think the one who’s arguably the most interesting is Ink5oul. In terms of like – my writer hat on for a second, I’d be like, (poshly) “Oh yes, Ink5oul is an interesting examination of blablabla.”

Whereas Bonzo, there’s something to be said for like, what is he? Big and scary, anything else? No.

Quite the opposite of Needles. Not sharp. But still manky.

JONNY

I feel like Bonzo is great, but I feel like we can’t really take as much credit for Bonzo as all that, because like –

ALEX

Oh, nooo! It didn’t say which we were most proud of. It said which is your favorite.

JONNY

I feel like I’m not gonna have a favorite that I’m not properly proud of. And I think Bonzo’s come out brilliantly, like, April did some amazing work on the actual design-design. But Bonzo is broadly us, like, surfing the crest of the wave that is Mr Blobby’s Return. Because Mr Blobby has been back in the cultural zeitgeist for, ooh, what, couple of years now?

ALEX

I mean, he only just got confirmed as an official, like, has a show coming.

JONNY

Oh, really.

ALEX

Oh yeah. We did it again. So we basically went, “Wouldn’t it be messed up if Mr Blobby came back? There’s a blast of nostalgia that no one – oh, right.” And then a record-breaking deal was just signed with the creator, months, months after we revealed Bonzo as a character.

JONNY

(laughs) We were very much just surfing a zeitgeist wave with Bonzo. And I think we surfed it with some real style. But at the same time I don’t feel like we can take a huge amount of credit. “Oh, what an off-the-wall idea!”

ALEX

(chuckles) Never said that! Just said I enjoy. And you know what it was specifically, I can pick the moment where I’m like, “Oh, it’s worked and I like it.”

It’s when he crushes the car on the way out of the house?

[Jonny laughs]

ALEX

Just that crunch. (mimicking sirens) Oo-wee-oo-wee-oo-wee!

JONNY

Yeah, alright.

ALEX

And I’m like, (delighted) “That’s such a dick move, Bonzo! You prick! You absolute unnecessary prick!”

JONNY

Well, the thing is, Blobby always was a prick. That’s the thing.

ALEX

That’s why I liked Bonzo, is it’s just that being a little bit of a prick. Unlike Needles, who is… too much pricks.

JONNY

He’s all prick.

ALEX

Eurgh. Next question, Jonny. Go for it.

JONNY

Cos of how he’s made of needles.

ALEX

Yeah, no, I get that, yeah.

JONNY

From “loads of people”: (affecting a vaguely wipsy old voice) “How different was it writing for the season with a whole roster of guest writers contributing? Did you have to make any adjustments to their material to make it fit into a wider narrative? Have the guest writers had influences on the greater story?”

ALEX

So that’s three questions. We should probably do those one at a time.

JONNY

The short answers are: very, yes, and no? Or rather, not a lot. In that order.

But to go into a little bit of detail, it’s very different with the guest writers. From my point of view, at least, because the whole… structure of it is different – I mean to be fair, Protocol, it’s not just the guest writers. Protocol’s writing structure has been very different to how Archives worked, because it’s not just the guest writers, it’s also –

ALEX

There is a structure?

JONNY

I mean, yeah. Yeah.

[Alex laughs]

JONNY

The structure of Archives was, “Hey, Jonny, recording’s tomorrow, do you have the script ready?” (unconvincingly) “Yeees! Of course I do!”

ALEX

“They’re in this box that only I can see.”

JONNY

“See you tomorrow! With the scripts that I absolutely have!”

Whereas with this, because anything I write goes to Alex and then back to me and then back to Alex, anything Alex writes goes to me then back to Alex, et cetera, anything that’s guest writers goes through both of us. So there’s a lot more of a pipeline, a lot more hands are touching pretty much every script.

The guest writer aspect, to me, has felt part of a wider shift in how the pipeline has gone, writing-wise.

ALEX

Mm. I think probably worth explaining what the process is very quickly for people, just cos that’ll probably answer the questions better, which is, effectively, for… How it worked is we generated out a series bible. We then generated an abridged series bible with all of the really interesting bits cut out by Jonny, cos quote, “I’m sorry, Alex, but at some point alchemy just gets boring.”

That’s then provided to the guest writers, and along with that we provided a list of prompts and basically said, “Listen, you can either pick a prompt from here or suggest an alternate that hits the similar kind of beats as this prompt,” so that that way we’re not having a complete tonal shift or whatever.

A lot of people pitched their own of those, some got them, some didn’t. And then blablabla, they all get allocated out. Then they wrote their episodes sort of separate, with us answering questions in terms of, like, how’s it interact and so on. Generally speaking, there was a slow trend towards people preferring just to focus on the cases rather than the whole episode, which makes sense.

JONNY

It was sort of, a bit of a back-and-forth. A bunch of writers did scenes, but, like, asking people to write plot-heavy dialogue scenes late, halfway through an ongoing season… It’s an almost impossible ask.

ALEX

So then what happened after that is, once we got that in, if there’s scenes missing, generally speaking – we’ve been trying to flip out who’s dominant in an episode between Jonny and myself to spread the workload, but – generally speaking, Jonny’s been the one who’s been focusing more on editing the cases, and I’ve been the one who’s been focusing on editing the scenes a bit more.

And then like Jonny says, if it’s a guest one, guest provides their materials, additional materials go in, and then it passes between both of our hands. Then I’ll do a final pass as a director, but the director’s pass is more like, “how am I going to record this” as opposed to “is it working as a script.” It’s going to be more like, “Oh, I’ll cut this line.” “Why?” “Cos I know that” – I don’t know – “Billie can’t say that word without fumbling it.”

I’m picking an arbitrary example…

JONNY

(laughing) Really throwing Billie under the bus!

ALEX

Well no, I was just thinking, cos Billie had this huge thing about: is it Choco Leibniz (Leeb-nitz) or Leibniz (Lybe-nitz), and we have to get this right, and it was a whole thing.

JONNY

Oh, really!

ALEX

As a director what I should’ve done is just cut it out and gone, “Choccy biccy. Done.”

JONNY

That’s very funny, because I say both, randomly. I eat them a lot, and I don’t think there is a correct one.

ALEX

This is the thing, is, right, is that’s the kind of thing as a director I’ll be like, “This feels like that might waste huge amounts of time, I should cut that.” Instead of, “I’m just going to just leave this here and eat up a good hour of April’s time, based on chocolate biscuit branding.”

But yeah. Effectively, it is different working with guest writers. Adjustments to fit into the wider narrative: yes and no. There wasn’t really much in the way of people just going in the wrong direction or anything like that, it was a lot more detail-orientation, so it’d be stuff like changing a name here or a replace there, and stuff like that.

JONNY

Often we would need to slightly tweak the ending to Archivist statements, because those had to be much more directly tied into the metaplot.

In terms of guest writers having influence on the greater story: not directly. The season planning meetings are me, Alex, and April, and that’s where we sort of hash out how we want each season to work. There were a few bits where we were like, “Ooh. This thing from guest writer statement worked really well, it resonates really well with X or Y theme. We can pull that out and add it into Season 2 in this bit or this bit.” We might be like, “You know, there’s a throughline to a few of the different guest statements, actually.” So we can do something in Season 2 that actually is working with the theme that they’ve sort of set up and started developing.

ALEX

Yeah, I think for me there was most of that, where you’d look at two or three and be like, “Actually, thematically, won’t you pair this with one that, say, Jonny wrote or whatever? There’s fertile ground there.” So rather than it just being like: “And now part 2 of this case!” Most of them, it was: “Ah, interesting. There’s something here that we can expand on.”

JONNY

Cos we’ve not got as many episodes to work with in Protocol as Archives. We’re doing a lot fewer, like, part twos?

ALEX

I always laugh at – it’s like, as writers it’s like, “We only have 92, depending if you include bonus, of 110 episodes!”

JONNY

“How do people live like this?”

ALEX

“How can anyone tell a story in this format?!” And the director in me is like, I already know what a hernia feels like, I don’t wanna know what a cardiac arrest feels like.

[Jonny snickers]

ALEX

This is fine. This is sufficient.

JONNY

I mean the thing is, it’s not that 90 episodes aren’t enough to tell a story. It’s 90 episodes building a really intricate world.

Also, because you don’t have Season 1 in Protocol – I mean obviously you have Season 1 of Protocol, but the thing about The Magnus Archives Season 1 is that it is functionally just an anthology show.

ALEX

Yeahhhhh, that was odd. That was weird.

JONNY

Like, the metaplot is very slow-burn being introduced, which means that all the focus is on the stories, on the statements. With little bits of characterization being gradually drip-fed in for the actual characters that are going to continue through the story.

Protocol, that’s not an option. Because we’ve got a shorter runtime, so if people are going to be invested in the characters, we need those characters to be front and center quite early. Also, because you can’t uncheck the big metanarrative tick box. Once you sound the gong that says “huge metanarrative,” you can’t then go back to being like, “Oh, but maybe it’s just a bit of an anthology series!” Because people would get really impatient and it would be a much harder ask to get rolling and, again, with a shorter runtime, you’re burning time that you need to establish these characters and to tell your actual story.

ALEX

I have found it fascinating and I suspect you’ve seen it as well – I’ve seen a little bit more of the fandom for Protocol than I did for Archives, just by virtue of, I guess, the nature of my work being a bit more remote than it used to be. But it’s the exact split in my eye of a third of people going “This is moving far too quickly! Far too quickly compared to Archives!” A third who are like, “Yeah, this feels right.” And then another third who are like, “This is agonizingly slow! This is killing me slow!”

Which means that we’re striking a balance right. And I can’t help but notice that the people who think it’s going too fast are the ones who were there for week-by-week release for years, and the people who are like “this is slow” who are the people who came to it later. In general.

JONNY

I will bet you any money, the people who are saying “this is going too fast” are people who were there for Season 1 or there for the – and the people who are like “this is way too slow” are people who binged all of Archives in, like, a weekend.

ALEX

Almost certainly. It seems to be the trend. But it is just fascinating to see. There was a piece of advice I was given by a writing teacher years and years ago which is, “If everyone is irritated but not angry, you’ve probably done it right.”

JONNY

I don’t know about everyone! I’d like some people to just be like, (monotone) “I am enjoying this podcast, thank you.”

ALEX

I don’t think that’s an option, Jonny, sooo…

JONNY

Yeah…

ALEX

Oh well.

Alright, next one is from… “loads of people.” (extremely gravelly) “While writing the last season of The Magnus Archives, did you already have ideas brewing for a sequel, or for either case files or character arcs, or did you come up with this storyline for The Magnus Protocol? Inspirations, question mark?”

JONNY

I don’t think we had any of the specifics of Protocol in mind when we were working on the last season of Archives.

ALEX

We knew the mechanism that would be available to us.

JONNY

We knew that what we were doing at the end of Season 5 was essentially opening up a multiverse.

ALEX

We’re just leaving a door open a crack and putting a little doorstep in there and…

JONNY

Yeah. There were and remain all sorts of, like, other Magnus stuff in the works – that it is really useful, from a sort of metanarrative point of view, to be able to go: “There are infinite Magnus universes. This can take place in a different one.”

ALEX

At the risk of making it a bit unglamorous and showing how the sausage is made, as a production company for a moment: it’s a very different prospect, say, trying to work with a third party to make an RPG – Monte Cook did a really good job – and being able to go, “Look, you can pick what you want,” rather than “You have to have memorized basically five years worth of constant work before you can even begin to touch this as an idea.” It’s untenable unless you give a cheat of some kind.

JONNY

The RPG is a really good example. People are saying, like, “Ooh, the art in the RPG, is that canon?” And it’s like, I mean, it’s probably canon for any – for one of the infinite realities that are now possible within the umbrella of Magnus.

ALEX

And also, don’t forget! This was a few years ago! (laughing) It wasn’t quite the du jour move as it is now.

JONNY

I think that we are quite good at accidentally picking up on a zeitgeist just before it becomes overplayed? Which is great for our stuff when it releases, but often means that afterwards… you’re like, “Ohhh, dear.”

ALEX

Ages like milk!

[Alex cackles]

Yeah, we’re good at being the last person in the door on stuff like this.

JONNY

(smugly) We’re the last cool people to do multiverses!

ALEX

Oh, yeah, yeah, “cool,” that’s what I meant. “Cool,” yeah.

Did we already have ideas brewing or character arcs or blablabla?

JONNY

Not really.

ALEX

No. But here’s the thing is, we did sit and informally nattering, like, you could see which strands just led off, if you’ll pardon the mixed metaphor a little bit. But you can see which ones led through. But we didn’t sit there and go “right, let’s start work immediately.” You gotta remember, this finished and then – you could not have nailed me down near to Archives for at least six months, just by virtue of, I know writers get it? Trust me, directors get it worse. You hit a point of “I can’t look at this for X amount of time, I can’t!”

For Rusty Quill Gaming, which predated Archives, it was something like two, three years? Before I could even look at an RPG again.

JONNY

Yeah, something like that.

ALEX

And Archives wasn’t that bad, but it was still the same thing where it’s like, “I’m kind of done! I’m done for a little bit! I’m gonna go do other things.”

JONNY

It was conversations about how we could conceivably do a sequel that sort of worked us into a shoe of actually doing it.

But what’s fascinating is looking back, the conversations that ultimately convinced us to do Protocol… Almost none of the ideas from those conversations actually ended up in Protocol.

ALEX

Yeahhh, I have noticed that.

JONNY

As soon as we made the decision, “No, we’re actually doing this,” we kind of just sat down and did it from first principles.

ALEX

Yeah. Cos I was originally pushing for something that was a lot more corporate. Whereas we ended up with, like, civil service. And to be clear, all the good bits from the prior things have made it through, but Jonny’s a hundred percent right, cos I was always in my head going: “Yeah, we’ll do it as this weird corporate thing where it’s like, what happens if Catholicism gets all mashed up with it…”

JONNY

We had a lot of ideas for organizations, basically none of whom have actually ended up in Protocol.

ALEX

Which is fine, we took all the bits we wanted, but – I think it was Jonny that originally proposed civil service, actually.

JONNY

Probably I was at the start of working on Burnout, which also has a character in the civil service, so I was, I was very civil service-brained at the time.

ALEX

That makes sense.

JONNY

All of it comes out from having lived with someone who worked for the civil service for a few years.

ALEX

Yeah, yeah, same.

I have publically said this and I’ll say it again, though, which was: it was computer game Control that pulled the trigger on me.

JONNY

Yeah, Control was you coming to me and being like, “We need to do this.”

ALEX

Jonny recommended it to me, I played it, and then I went, “Ahhhhh!” Jonny’s mentioned this before – literally years ago, god we’re old.

JONNY

Mm.

ALEX

You were talking about filling the tank. The tank is like, inspiration that comes from other people?

JONNY

I think of it as a soup these days?

ALEX

Yeah, sure. Gumbo. Effectively my tank was empty at the end of Archives, where I was like, you have ideas and mechanically you know what to do but it’s a really bad idea to pursue stuff at that point, because you’re running on fumes.

Weirdly enough, I know that it was the game Control that triggered, for me, the “Oh, the tank’s full and I know what to do.”

JONNY

I prefer to think of it as a soup because a soup can have chunks in. And I think that in terms of inspiration and that mess of ideas and thoughts, sometimes you have chunks in ‘em – you have certain ideas or certain things that are thicker, bit more lumpy, than others.

Your tank metaphor implies that all ideas and inspirations are sort of equally filtered and of equal consistency, which I simply can’t agree with.

ALEX

Cos you’re not distilling your ideas properly.

[Jonny cackles]

ALEX

I also just noticed that April’s telling us to hurry along, and I shouldn’t be breaking the frame in this way, but I’m deliberately now lingering just to annoy producer April before moving on. So is there anything else you want to share about Gumbo before we move on, Jonny?

JONNY

I fear April in a way you do not.

[Alex snickers]

ALEX

You should, I’m just foolish.

JONNY

So a question from Bloody Baroness Cosplay: “In the cast list of episode 10, Mr Bonzo has been listed as ‘uncredited.’ Can you tell us the reason for this, and will we ever find out who voiced Mr Bonzo?”

No, it’s cos we’ve got Mr Bonzo in.

ALEX

He’s expensive.

JONNY

It shouldn’t say “uncredited.” It should say “as himself”? Someone with the legal department meant that it ended up being listed as uncredited, rather than as himself.

ALEX

Oh yeah, there was a bit of a mix-up there. No, the problem is, is that we had to sort of take certain bits back after he trashed the studio. I mean, we knew he was going to, so we used a decoy studio, but nonetheless that stuff costs, and so we had to punish him in some way. Otherwise he just keeps doing that kind of thing, you know?

JONNY

Yeah. I don’t know, actually, I’m not involved in the production side of things, so –

ALEX

Do you want to know? Do you want me to dish, do you want the tea?

JONNY

I’ll be honest, everything I’ve heard of him in the industry, it sounds like Mr Bonzo’s pretty professional.

ALEX

You would definitely have heard that from certain parties, yeah. But all I’m just going to say is…

JONNY

Oh really!

ALEX

(darkly) The thing with Bonzo, right, is he’s got two sides.

JONNY

(disappointed) Ohhh, okay.

ALEX

It’s all happy fun time unless people aren’t laughing. Then the anger comes out, and it’s a whole thing.

JONNY

That’s fair.

ALEX

I think we’ve answered that, then. Oh, actually, no, carry-on from Sentient Forest Orb: “Is Mr Bonzo happy with his job, does he get good benefits, and can I apply for that job as well?”

So, that’s a good question. Is he happy with his job – I mean, presumably?

JONNY

Yeah.

ALEX

On the whole.

JONNY

Yeah, I think so.

ALEX

Does he get good benefits, erm, yes, better than I get. I can tell you that.

JONNY

Better than any of us, like, we’re all self-employed, aren’t we.

ALEX

Not all of us get the big bucks like Bonzo. And can you apply for that job as well? What, being a different person? I suppose, are they asking “can I be a voice actor” – no…

JONNY

I think they’re talking about within the fiction. So, a strip club murderer, I think is the job that they’re asking for.

ALEX

Live your dream.

JONNY

I mean, I haven’t seen many listings on LinkedIn for strip club murderer.

ALEX

Live your sexy murder dream.

[Alex wheezes to himself]

JONNY

Moving on…

ALEX

“Sexy murderous host. Must provide own cleavers.”

Okay, loads of people.

JONNY

(wispy voice) “Beth Eyre plays the Archivist in Protocol, but also Lucia Wright in Archives. Is there a connection there? Is [ERROR]/The Archivist someone that we know or someone new altogether? What were you looking for when you cast her? Did you consider bringing back a character from TMA for the role instead?”

ALEX

Again, lots of questions. After you, Jonny.

JONNY

This one’s like, we’re not answering most of those questions, cos it’s a spoiler. In terms of what we were looking for when we cast her, like “Why did you cast Beth Eyre?” Broadly speaking, cos Beth Eyre rules!

ALEX

Did a really, really good audition.

JONNY

Yeah!

ALEX

Very good to work with. The problem is, is, it’s not just having worked with people before. There’s a reason that you’ll see some of the same people coming up, and that’s by virtue of like, really good to work with, very reliable, thoroughly recommend. And that’s not a put-down on the people who aren’t, cos availabilities shift. I’m not going to go into the story reasons, like Jonny said, because of “be patient,” but it’s odd that people feel the need of – why we need to justify it. She’s really good!

JONNY

She’s a fantastic voice actor! (laughing) And, you know.

ALEX

Next one, then, is from Robin Rider. Oh, I need a new voice. Uh… I was immediately wanting to do my Daffy Duck and I’m like, no one’s going to be able to hear me. “Trans woman here. What made you want to write an explicitly trans character for The Magnus Protocol? Why will, or why won’t Alice’s trans identity ever be important to the story?”

JONNY

I write a lot of trans characters; so does Alex. Like, we like writing – our lives are full of loads of different people, a lot of whom are trans, and we want to see that reflected in the fiction that we create!

ALEX

I mean, it was a day one point as well, actually. It was literally, it was like, the second thing that Jonny was like, “I’d like this.” “Yes. I think that is a good idea.”

JONNY

Yeah. And also, Alice’s trans identity will not be important to the story. Because broadly speaking, I always think that everyone deserves to be able to see themselves in the fiction they consume, without needing to feel an urge to justify their presence.

There doesn’t need to be a story reason that Alice is trans. I’m not really necessarily the one to write the story about being trans. But that doesn’t mean that trans people don’t exist in the worlds that I imagine, the worlds that I write.

ALEX

I can’t think of any situation I would want to hang plot off a section of someone’s identity like that? Because it kind of abandons the idea of intersectionality entirely, which is weird to me, and I find it really hard to conceive of things like that.

JONNY

It’s like with Archives. No one’s asking like, hey, what made you want to write a dude main character?

ALEX

Right?

JONNY

Nothing made me want to, I just, you know.

ALEX

Flipped a coin.

JONNY

As you know, what made me want to is… my voice. Cos – yeah, that’s not a good example.

ALEX

Basically, for the rest of the characters it was a coin flip half the time.

In fact, we have actually – not even due to logistical things, it’s just, as we figured it out, we gender and sexuality-flipped a few characters whilst you iterated on the story for Protocol.

JONNY

Yeah, cos sometimes… it’s rarely like, for plot reasons, but often thematic consistency. I don’t know if we sexuality-flipped anyone, but we’ve definitely gender-flipped a few people for voice acting reasons.

ALEX

Well the problem is, it’s hard to say sexuality-flip because basically you and I both pretty much write everyone as bi all the time, and we’ll pay attention to it if it comes up.

JONNY

(sighs) Yeah…

[Alex cackles]

JONNY

Sometimes, thematically or for plot reasons, or because two characters just feel like they got a vibe – you’re like, they should go together. You don’t want to be like, “Aw, yeah, but we decided this one was straight for some reason. Nah!”

ALEX

I very much have come to realise that at least in any world that I write, every character is bi; they just might not have met someone sufficiently sexy of a specific vibe.

JONNY

We are very much of the “everyone’s bi because we’re lazy writers” school.

[Alex laughs]

ALEX

Okay. Okay, okay. I think it’s a you question now!

JONNY

Morgan Mitchell and Marceline Gaming: (Santa Claus-y voice) “You’ve mentioned your influences for the horror aspects of Magnus in previous QnAs, but does anything specific inspire the comedic/satirical aspect of the show?”

ALEX

Ooh!

JONNY

“After avoiding making TMA a workplace comedy despite a fan outcry, but this show’s ramped that up. Why the change?”

I don’t know, Magnus Archives was pretty funny.

ALEX

I have been told that I may be pushing the comedy-satire-related harder, so the fact that I’m a little bit more involved on the writing in this one means it might be coming through a bit more, but I think it’s underestimating Archives quite a bit there. Archives is a really bleak humor.

JONNY

I think the thing is that you write jokes more than I do. I think Archives is very funny, but it is very much my sense of humor, which is not – there are very few things you could point to and say, like, “Ooh, that’s a joke.” Whereas in Protocol you’ve got a much bigger presence in the dialogue, and I think your, like, how you tend to write that same tone –

ALEX

Well, I came up through comedy. It influences you.

JONNY

Yeah. You are from a background of jokes.

ALEX

It’s just sometimes in the jokes the people die, and then you have horror.

JONNY

Yeah. And so I think that the comedy is a lot more obvious in Protocol? I think it is more readable as comedy.

With Archives, the number of times I’ve had people come up to me and be like, “It’s dreadful but I actually find X or Y thing very funny,” and I’m like, “…Yes.”

[Alex laughs]

JONNY

Like, the number of people who will be like, “You know what, I actually found Monster Pig quite funny.” Yes. Cos – cos of how it’s very funny! Cos of how I’m very funny.

ALEX

Archives still has my favorite funny moment to date of anything that’s Magnus-related, which was, “What, are you gonna, like, cut your eyes out?” Beat. “Fuck off.” Like, that’s not –

JONNY

Yeah, cos the thing is, that’s not a joke. But it’s funny.

ALEX

It’s funny.

JONNY

Yeah.

ALEX

I’d love to give some, like, “Here is the specific references for comedic-satirical,” but no? Structurally, unintentionally, it often follows sitcom structures, by virtue of office environment. Which means there’s a reason that office sitcoms follow a specific shape. And there’s probably an unconscious element of following those, but it’s not a specific, like, “Oh it’s The Office but –” or anything like that.

Unless you’ve got anything specific, I genuinely don’t have a specific point I go to for it.

JONNY

It’s tricky. Like, bringing up specific examples, I think, overstates the importance of that specific show or book or whatver. Like, I think we are both very influenced by the shift and flow of comedy and – British comedy. Like, Peep Show. I don’t think there is a lot of Peep Show in Protocol, but I think that that slight style of like… it’s not awkward comedy in the way – some of the ways Peep Show really leans into, but it’s got that slight bite to it, that slight edge.

ALEX

See I dog you (?) – It wasn’t intentional, but I think there’s a dash of The Thick of It?

Yeah, Thick of It. Well, Thick of It is an evolution of the Peep Show style into a more realistic, into a different format.

ALEX

Yeah.

JONNY

This is what I mean when I say we are heavily influenced by the currents of British comedy, because that is a scene that we have both been in for most of our life to one degree or another.

ALEX

I think it would be safe to say, though, it’s definitely a UK vibe and not a US vibe. Although people always ask you to quantify that and it’s tricky to do it seriously? I genuinely think it’s quite hard to quantify, but it’s definitely more UK than US, but… I think that’s the best I’m going to be able to manage.

JONNY

Weirdly, if I had to pick specific influences, I’d probably reach for a handful of sketch comedy troupes I saw six to seven years ago at the Fringe that no longer exist.

Although there’s this – there’s this one, (louder) what were they called? What were they called? Casual Violence? Was that, was that the name?

ALEX

(snickers) Ohhh, no, no, I don’t think so. I think it was whatever was really successful, that was the one.

JONNY

Just to explain that little dig at Alex is, uh, Alex used to direct a sketch comedy called Casual Violence.

ALEX

I have directed many things, they were amongst them. Okay. Charlie B and anon, “What made you decide to create a guy in IT and then make him scared of machines?” I love it. “Is Colin actually being tormented by the Eye, or is he just having a breakdown due to being an overworked, undersupported IT manager during late-stage capitalism?”

I mean, for a start, that is a false binary.

JONNY

But also, this is a very easy question. Every single person I know who works in IT is scared of the machines.

ALEX

Well, yeah.

JONNY

Every single one.

ALEX

The more you know about them, the more it’s like, “Oh, no.” The one that’s the scariest is the Internet. That is a cough away from imploding.

JONNY

If you think you understand machines and you’re not afraid of them: no you don’t.

ALEX

(laughs) You know what, that’s as pithy as you’re gonna get, I am happy to move on because that is bang-on.

JONNY

We’re just writing realism, it’s just realism here.

ALEX

After you, Jonny, for the next one.

JONNY

This is the RQ PLEBS Discord Kath and Jared Sage.

ALEX

I really hope they call themselves the RQ PLEBS and that someone hasn’t just been really mean in RQ and writing up who did this!

JONNY

(gruff voice) “Are case DPHWs, categories, plus ranks things that we as listeners are able to work out given current information? Also: why did you do this to us?

“While determining the case info for each episode in production, not in universe, do you look up in a master spreadsheet based on the themes/sub-theme the way Alice describes, or do you pick the appropriate DPHW, CAT, and rank for each episode knowing what those systems MEAN?”

I think you should definitely answer this one, Jonny, since you’re so utterly au fait with all the nuances of this highly specific system.

JONNY

Eh, Alex just kind of makes it up.

ALEX

(laughs) This is a chunk of that enormous bible that Jonny was alluding to earlier.

JONNY

DPHW, categories and ranks absolutely have meanings. They are not arbitrary. Well, they are arbitrary insofar as they reflect the numbers that we would personally ascribe to these things.

ALEX

They all work out at (indistinct)

JONNY

Categories and ranks should be pretty simple, if you can’t work out categories and ranks, yeah: (pffts) What are you doing. Come on.

ALEX

Alright, calm down, Jonny. Calm down.

JONNY

(snickers) Fools. All of them, fools! Yeah, categories and ranks, pretty discrete. The DPHW you should probably be able… eh, I don’t know about “should.” It is theoretically possible that you could work it out.

ALEX

I have become aware of a couple of people who have danced around it a bit, but I can’t stress enough that like, to have worked it out at this stage is proper sleuthing.

JONNY

Mmmm.

ALEX

This isn’t something that you’d just passively be like, “Eh, it’s probably this.”

JONNY

I will also say, in something that is very very funny to me: what you have to remember is that the DPHW, the categories, the ranks…

That is how the O.I.A.R. defines these things.

ALEX

Eeeeyup!

JONNY

Which means, whether it has any relation to the actual world, to what’s actually going on… who knows?

ALEX

Eeeeyup.

JONNY

Who knows.

ALEX

(ominous chuckling) Mm, hmm-hmm.

JONNY

There’s a nonzero chance… (leaning into the mic, whispering) …it doesn’t matter at all.

(leans back) But it could!

ALEX

But it all connects together. And that’s the same thing as objective truth, right? If a system’s coherent…

JONNY

So yes, it is a coherent system used by the O.I.A.R. We don’t have a big book of categorizations, we vibe it a lot more.

ALEX

We have a book of previous mentions and stuff that has to be, but that’ll be like, for consistency.

JONNY

Yes. So if we have something that’s similar to an earlier episode, we can look at the DPHW from the earlier episode and be like, “Eh, maybe adjust it a little bit.” But, our way of categorizing them is the same as the O.I.A.R.’s except ours is more vibe-based.

ALEX

I mean, let’s be honest, the O.I.A.R. is also vibe-based, I reckon. Like –

JONNY

It’s just the vibes are dreadful!

ALEX

Especially because deliberately in the show notes, we have the first few ones that Sam’s done, and they’re just… either wrong or barely a thing. Cos ultimately, their entire system relies on someone going: “…I think this?” Just with bells and whistles!

JONNY

Yeah.

ALEX

Fatal Drum asks: “Okay, I need to know. What kind of dog was in the Newton statement? I’ve heard Newton’s favorite dog was a Pomeranian, but he’s giving me terrier vibes in the statement. Thank you.”

JONNY

You need to answer this one, because you wrote the statement and you know more about Newton than I do. What was Newton’s dog?

ALEX

To answer things in an order that will help people: number one, Jonny was rightfully reticent to include Newton as a whole –

[Jonny laughs]

ALEX

I wasn’t pushing for Newton as something I was obsessed with, it’s just that if you do anything to do with alchemy…

JONNY

You can’t not Newton! If you’re doing alchemy, you can’t not Newton.

ALEX

All roads lead to Newton. It actively makes things go really weirdly historically if you don’t include Newton? Cos he’s just sort of sat in the middle of everything, being a bit of a dick?

In terms of like, the dog, I’ll be honest, I can’t even remember the breed off the top of the head. It is whatever it is historically.

JONNY

Do you want me to just literally on-air google Newton’s dog?

ALEX

Go for it. I wrote it whilst looking at some woodcuttings of the burning down of his, I think he called it the lab, I can’t remember. And it has images of that dog, so I just wrote with that in mind.

JONNY

(reading) Diamond, brackets, dog. “Diamond was, according to legend, Sir Isaac Newton’s favourite dog, who set fire to manuscripts containing his notes on experiments conducted over the course of twenty years.”

ALEX

It wasn’t experiments. It was all alchemy! He was so into it!

JONNY

“Some historians claim that Newton never owned pets.”

ALEX

But yeah, I did it based on woodcuttings that I’d seen of like, what the dog looked like.

JONNY

Nah, those historians are ignorant.

ALEX

I’d believe it. The brutal truth is that I didn’t have a specific breed, I just wrote it based on, there’s a very specific woodcutting which is the one where it’s literally, it has a penny dreadful-esque quote underneath, which is something like: “Oh Diamond! What hath thou done now?” Or whatever it is, I can’t remember. That sort of idea.

JONNY

Yeah, it’s like a shaggy little guy. (reading) “O Diamond, Diamond, thou little knowest the mischief thou hast done.”

ALEX

That’s it! And then this little woodcut over the top, which is paired with it. Yeah, that. I just wrote that. So whatever that is.

JONNY

It’s claiming he was a Pomeranian.

ALEX

Alright, if it existed, then it’s a Pomeranian.

I’ll be honest, you’re right, it does have terrier vibes, but eh. Your mileage may vary. I’m happy to move on with, “Sorry, I looked at a picture and did it off that,” cos I knew there wasn’t much data on it.

JONNY

To be fair, given that this is our own universe and we can change whatever we like, I might declare…

ALEX

(quickly) Saint Bernard.

JONNY

Saint Bernard – yeah, I was thinking of a Saint Bernard! Just a big, slobbery Saint Bernard.

ALEX

Just a huge, unnecessarily massive Saint Bernard.

JONNY

Yeah. Basically the dog from the movie Beethoven. Just lolloping around…

ALEX

(wheezing) That scene changes so much when you do that!

JONNY

Just lolloping around Sir Isaac Newton’s workshop.

ALEX

It’s a Beethoven then.

Jonny, this is the last question, which is from anon, appropriately enough: “What’s something you wished fans knew about making the show?”

JONNY

It’s really hard.

ALEX

All the bits you think are easy are really, really hard. All the bits you think are hard are just a bit hard.

JONNY

Yeah.

ALEX

Like, getting it to sound accurate that someone has sat in a chair is exhausting and agonizing, painstaking work. And it’s something that you’d just be like, “Eh, they probably just sat in a chair.”

JONNY

Sometimes, just to punish Alex, I’ll write the words: “The character leaves, closing the door behind them.”

ALEX

Which is why I have the director passes.

JONNY

No, actually even worse – even worse, there is: brackets, the start of a dialogue tag, “(while leaving).”

ALEX

Oh, that’s a – that’s a –

[Jonny laughs evilly]

ALEX

the one that really, really annoys me with Jonny, which is – and I know you do it to mess with me, because I have a pet peeve which is irrational, which is you’ll write something like… “There is the sound of,” and then a description.

And I’ll immediately wade in and start editing that, because I’m of the opinion that you should never in an audio script write the word “there is the sound of”? It should always be like, “A knife is dropped.”

JONNY

I mean, you’re not wrong.

ALEX

But yeah, honestly it’s just, it’s – the bits that you think are easy are really hard. Genuinely, like, the editors are actual miracle workers at this point, in a way that you’ll never, never appreciate.

And I think that we have successfully answered the more than one thousand questions we have received in that time. I think we’re good!

JONNY

Yeah. If anyone has any other questions, then…

ALEX

They’re bad and should feel bad.

JONNY

They’re wrong. They’re incorrect.

[Alex wheezes]

They don’t, actually. We’ve answered that question.

ALEX

Oh, they’re incorrect.

JONNY

Yeah, they’re mistaken. They think they have questions, but actually…

ALEX

Look, it’s a mystery show, but there’s X amount of mystery and beyond that it’s just noise.

JONNY

Yeah, after a certain point, they don’t – that’s not a question they have. They just think they have it. It’s a mirage.

ALEX

See, the funny thing is, I have no idea, at all, what the selection criteria is for questions? So this is like – we are chucking vast reams of people under the bus with no understanding of context.

JONNY

Yeah, I’ll do that. Under the bus you go. If you’re like “Augh! My question wasn’t answered!” Under the bus.

ALEX

Stop bussing the fandom!

JONNY

Get under the bus.

ALEX

Ahhh. See, they all knocked me when I said it was bussin’, little did they know.

JONNY

Oh no, oh god, I didn’t even clock – oh no, I didn’t even clock what was happening. Oh, no.

ALEX

(snickering) Talk to you all soon. Bye!

JONNY

(resigned) Byeee!

---

[Outro theme]

ALEX

The Magnus Protocol is a podcast distributed by Rusty Quill and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Sharealike 4.0 International License.

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Thanks for listening.